Now there is an Idea......Obama the 4th president on Rushmore.....I think he deserves a Mount of his own.

Wow, you are brainwashed. Tell me what he has done? Our country is in a mess. Headed toward being bankrupt. Gas is through the roof. No jobs. Unemployment higher than ever. He lies and he spins. He makes things up. He has not kept one campaign promise he made....not one. The world does not respect us. The Muslim brotherhood is filtering in with Obama's blessing. What is wrong with you? Wake up! A mountain of his own? Are you serious. You even have his photo on your name? The absolute worst president this country has ever known. Tell me something. Why do you think he deserves his own mountain?

And so do I, and now you are standing between us.....with a blank look on your face. Last time I looked we have a right to choose, are you and yours planning to take that away from us? It seems you come here with armed with nothing more than belittling words. and spouting other innuendo about Muslims. Tell me something this is only a funny little cartoon designed by an obama hater trying to make him look like an elitist, when your candidate is such an elitist he can't hid it no matter how hard he tries.

SIX: Going off the deep end again?

the beatles - help [LYRICS]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSh8AZmScFE

Wow, you are brainwashed. Tell me what he has done?

Obama outside of public speaking has no accomplishments whatsoever. That's why they can't tell you what he's done.

Romney is only slightly worse because not only does he have no accomplishments, he's not a good public speaker either.

Result: Two awful choices where Obama probably will prevail and four more years of business as usual for Washington. They will proceed as planned with their mutual agenda of control while both sides push the propaganda so the masses continue to be distracted by arguing over whose fault it is.

everyone, right and left would like to see the crooks of welfare fraud stopped. None of Americas caring people promote this type of behavior, and we think everyone has the right to vote.....unlike reps who want to suppress people from voting.

Welfare fraud is rare TM it was a lie made up by Ronnie Reagan to stir up racial divide. The pay off isn't worth enough for the risk involved if someone is caught defrauding welfare. Mistakes can be made like not reporting income but usually it is an over sight by the person or the worker. It is a strawman argument the right uses to make their racism justified. Even if fraud were rampant it still would not cost the country as much as the trillions the wealthy hide off shore.

Ask an expert.

I did see a case on MSNBC about a lottery winning recipient of food stamps who didn't feel she should report her winning the lottery because it was a one-time occurence and she felt it wouldn't count as income like a regular paycheck... Can you say, dumb? I knew you could...

So, are you implying you're that expert? What has me being able to say "dumb" have to do with anything? And you're answering yourself? I wouldn't classify that as being dumb, though. If you look at my comments, you'll notice I never said anything about Welfare Fraud, not once. Are you talking to whomitmay, because I never mentioned Welfare Fraud? I thought at first you were responding to me. Don't worry, no offense taken. My mistake.

JOHN VOIGHT! The man is as crazy as Glen Beck! Six, my friend, you cannot be serious! I do not understand what you are thinking! How could you, smart as you are, believe these people on Fox? Fox is a propaganda machine, and VERY good at it.

Fox takes half truths and spins them so professionally that they sound true. They are toxic! Please try to see that, if you can.

And, please, just for me, if you would, don't refer to Obama as "dear leader". Do not even imply that he is like the late leader of N. Korea. They are antithetical.

I guess we should trust NBC and all its affiliates (MSNBC), they have shown how fair and balanced they are .... I mean, its not like they have their own agenda or anything.

Wow!The poll question slim has up today paints Boehner as some elitist...when if you ACTUALLY knew his background would know what an idiot it would take to make that kind of incredibly stupid statement. Truth matter? Not to a kool aid drinking Liberal.And to somehow paint fox as a propoganda tool....would automatically make one a tool.

stormy, When has MBC and any of it's affiates ever said anything about "fair and balanced"? You must be thinking about Fox Lies.

six...

I wasn't even talking to you! For the past week or so, I have considered you toxic, and have had you on 'ignore'... I only expand your posts if they are the first in a potential series, or they may be responding to me, as in this case... Do Not Think You Are The Center Of My Universe!!!

Back to ignoring you...

Trust me Larry, everyone understands that NBC/MSNBC is as far away from being fair and balanced as it is possible to be. We all know that they have no concept of the meaning of the words and they are willing to sacrifice all concepts of journalistic ethics and integrity.

At least it isn't all lies and twisted truths like Fox Lies. Their not a bunch of hateful liars as is Fox Lies.

Oh.,, that is a great testament to their ethics....We don't lie as much as the other guy...sounds like a great Democtratic mantra. In your twisted mind, I guess it is okay to only steal a million dollars if somebody else stole 2 million.

No wonder our country is going down the tubes with thinking like that.

Well the GOP stole 7.7 trillion tax dollars to the banks in 2007 and we notice how you righties still never mention that theft. But typical tea bagger math, pennies matter more then $100 bills.

Stole to the banks? Wow, that governmental education is working wonders for you Whom....

I went on a 17 day vacation in Hawaii......however I am not the President....I didn't spend that much, but I didn't keep tabs on every cent I spent, nor did I have to have secrete service go everywhere I go, because some nut case might knock me off because I'm a PRESIDENT ON VACATION. I wouldn't be required to travel in special planes and cars either. So, what do you think it cost GW to go back and forth to the Ranch so George could cut brush? I think there were something like 17 of those trips. Cost quite a bit for him to get that Air Plane ready, even if it never takes off. There is a documentary on that.

http://blogs.ajc.com/cynthia-tucker/2010/08/23/obamas-vacation-days-fewer-than-bush-took/

Didn't like Bush either. Both of them have thrown my tax dollars away as far as I'm concerned.

US national debt

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uL0nZcx4jr4

Would you do us all a favor and check on the number and costs of GWBs vacations. And just for you, NO President has one word to say about who or how many Secret Service agents are on the detail.

larry74..... Personally, I can't tell the difference in them except it's clear Obama is a Marxist and Bush was just a failure.

Look at Hussein Obama's golf outing record..far more than Bush. Liberals were constantly whining about that.

00Accomplishments of president bush... i attacked and took over two countries. i spent the u.s. surplus and bankrupted the treasury. i shattered the record for biggest annual deficit in history. i set an economic record for most private bankruptcies filed in any 12-month period. i set all-time record for biggest drop in the history of the stock market. i am the first president in decades to execute a federal prisoner. i am the first president in us history to enter office with a criminal record. in my first year in office i set the all-time record for most days on vacation by any president in us history. after taking the entire month of august off for vacation, i presided over the worst security failure in us history. i set the record for most campaign fund raising trips by any president in us history. in my first two years in office over 2 million americans lost their job. i cut unemployment benefits for more out-of-work americans than any other president in us history. i set the all-time record for most foreclosures in a 12-month period. i appointed more convicted criminals to administration positions than any president in us history. i set the record for the fewest press conferences of any president since the advent of tv. i signed more laws and executive orders amending the constitution than any other president in us history. i presided over the biggest energy crises in us history and refused to intervene when corruption was revealed. i presided over the highest gasoline prices in us history and refused to use the national reserves as past presidents have. i cut health care benefits for war veterans. i set the all-time record for most people worldwide to simultaneously take to the streets to protest me (15 million people), shattering the record for protest against any person in the history of mankind. i dissolved more international treaties than any president in us history. i've made my presidency the most secretive and unaccountable of any in us history. members of my cabinet are the richest of any administration in us history. (the 'poorest' multimillionaire, condoleeza rice, has a chevron oil tanker named after her). i presided over the biggest corporate stock market fraud in any market in any country in the history of the world. i am the first president in us history to order a us attack and military occupation of a sovereign nation, and i did so against the will of the united nations and the world community. i have created the largest government department bureaucracy in the history of the united states. i set the all-time record for biggest annual budget spending increases, more than any other president in us history. i am the first president in us history to have the united nations remove the us from the human rights commission. i am the first president in us history to have the united nations remove the us from the elections monitoring board. i removed more checks and balances, and have the least amount of congressional oversight than any presidential administration in us history. i rendered the entire united nations irrelevant. i withdrew from the world court of law. i refused to allow inspectors access to us prisoners of war and by default no longer abide by the geneva conventions. i am the first president in us history to refuse united nations election inspectors access during the 2002 us elections. i am the all-time us (and world) record holder for most corporate campaign donations. the biggest lifetime contributor to my campaign, who is also one of my best friends, presided over one of the largest corporate bankruptcy frauds in world history (kenneth lay, former ceo of enron corporation). i spent more money on polls and focus groups than any president in us history. i am the first president to run and hide when the us came under attack (and then lied, saying the enemy had the code to air force 1) i am the first us president to establish a secret shadow government. i took the world's sympathy for the us after 911, and in less than a year made the us the most resented country in the world (possibly the biggest diplomatic failure in us and world history). i am the first us president in history to have a majority of the people of europe (71%) view my presidency as the biggest threat to world peace and stability. i am the first us president in history to have the people of south korea more threatened by the us than by their immediate neighbor, north korea. i changed us policy to allow convicted criminals to be awarded government contracts. i set the all-time record for number of administration appointees who violated us law by not selling their huge investments in corporations bidding for gov't contracts. i have removed more freedoms and civil liberties for americans than any other president in us history. in a little over two years i have created the most divided country in decades, possibly the most divided that the us has been since the civil war. i entered office with the strongest economy in us history and in less than two years turned every single economic category heading straight down. i fired federal attorneys for political reasons and did not inform the senate. i have not fully made enough armor both for vehicles and body armor for us military in iraq. records and references: i have at least one conviction for drunk driving in maine (texas driving record has been erased and is not available). i was awol from the national guard and deserted the military during a time of war. i refuse to take a drug test or even answer any questions about drug use. all records of my tenure as governor of texas have been spirited away to my father1s library, sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view. all records of any sec investigations into my insider trading or bankrupt companies are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view. all minutes of meetings of any public corporation for which i served on the board are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view. any records or minutes from meetings i (or my vp) attended regarding public energy policy are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public review. bush also went awol...and had his hand in the demolition of the wtc. bush referred to the us constitution as a god damn piece of paper. he was wrong about wmd. that got the us into a war with iraq. the un said there were no weapons and we still went to war anyway. at least colin powell did the right thing and resigned. too bad bush doesn't have powell's intregrity his initial response to hurricane katrina was horrible. the "no one left behind" idea is terrible: dumb down education so children look smarter without learning what they should. the patriot act violates the bill of rights. how can we talk about the freedom of democracy here in the us when the government keeps taking away those freedoms? his tax cuts did not go to those at the bottom of the income bracket. he raised interest rates for those taking loans to go to college. abstinence taught for sex education does not work. safe sex should also be taught in school as well. he talked about border protection and sealing off america from mexico, then gives the saudis (i think it was them) control over offshipping cargo on our coast. i thought we were supposed to be protecting our borders, not selling that right off to the highest bidder! his environmental policy is not helping reduce global warming. his solution is clean-burning coal! that will never happen!"He is the ranch vacation sabre-rattler president..."Hmm, I bet that this long list could be continued almost endlessly! The distraction from the topic that someone else brought up by mentioning Jimmy Carter's performance is just a distraction, and nothing but a distraction, from the issue. One has nothing to do with the other. This is not an issue of party evaluation, it's a question about George W. Bush and his performance, and yes, he is the worst President since WW II. He is the ranch vacation sabre-rattler president. Even the pro-US portion of the world has lost a lot of the respect for us as a nation.

What a joke...Husein has the highest gas prices , abandoned iraq and is failing miserably in Afghanistan,Has increased both the welfare rolls, food stamp rolls and insuring record high gas prices going forward with the EPA leading the charge which has resulted in major refineries closing... squeezing supplies and bringing 4-00 to 5.00 a gallon gas to Americans. Time to demand this Eco-facist and his evil minions be given their walking papers, so the Jobs he has cost this country and it's citizens can once again be made available from appalachia's coal mines toThe Gulf coast jobs deep sea drilling to the canadian pipeline which would create immediate jobs and stabalize fuel supplies and bring the price back Down...which Liberals are so dead set against in the name of their campaign of eco-terrorism. This failure of a President HAS taken a page out of Jimmy Carter;s playbook and is the exact same failure as Jimmy Carter. Hussein Obama ran on a campaign condemning Bush's Homeland security policies and now attempts to take credit for the death of Bin Laden by the very continuation of the policy of George Bush. This guy has been a marked failure and damaging to the very middle class they claim to champion. And if Hussein Obama;s kissing the backside of America's enemies at the expenxe of America's closest allies has "gained the respect" of the Hamas and Hezbullah of the world...America would be better off without it.

Excellent post xo and scott - The republicans are responsible for the high number of people needing and qualifying for food stamps! These 'JOB CREATORS' do not like to pay living wages. They also like to make lots of part-time jobs so they don't have to pay benefits. What a scam.

The only reason republicans receive any votes is because people think they are 'saving babies'. Folks will vote themselves an economic death sentence for the sake of the children - supposedly, but then when these children need food - to hell with them- let them be janitors! What a screwed -up bunch of BS the republicans have come to represent

Another fake republican mantra- smaller government, don't make me pay taxes, but when it comes to women, SPREAD THEM WIDE, HERE WE COME, LIKE IT OR NOT, by order of republican law. What a bunch of perverts! Egotistical, maniacal perverts.

And you are more than a little delusional on your Bush history. Dems voted to go to war against Iraq.And for you to claim "America attacked and took over two countries"neglects the fact that America never tried to place a government in either country.Freedom is as valuable to the peoples of Iraq as to those of Eastern Europe under the Sovs or Europe under Hitlers boot. What pray tell is the difference.And what kind of screwed up wack job are you implicating President Bush in bringing down the World trade center? A bridge too far even if you are legally pshycotic. Never mind the facts that The employment rate, welfare rolls and fuel prices have been under Hussein Obama's watch,Eh?

Its been said if you lie enough times or are told something enough times you will begin to believe it! And you are living proof!

Scott that is Pure horsesh**! If we wanted to hear the spill from the fakenews channel we would watch it. We don't and your coming here with their lies and distortion just makes you an unwanted quest.

We don't believe them and we sure don't believe you!

Be it The EPA regs or The war on American business in the way of taxes...Business does not trust this president and will not come off investment cash to expand untill this tax and spend Liberal that tried to fundamentally change the healthcare system into another bloated Government beauracracy and force the taxpayer to subsidize healthcare to illegals and the terminally unemployed is no longer able to try to force his radical legislation down their throats.So if you are happy with 12% real unemployment (or higher) Vote Obama.

are you reallythat stupid/

scott-3860658, please mind the Code of Honor.

Above all else, respect others. Address issues and arguments and refrain from making personal attacks.

Comparing either party to the third reich? perhaps you miss my point.Accusing GWB of bringing down the world trade center...the insults have not begun....

ALEC Citizens United and the Tea Party (Koch Bros.) fake party have been exposed and now will be made known to the rest of the electorate. Turn out the lights the party's over!

xxx... Let me help you out a little. Remember that thing called a link to the statements that you put on the vine? How about #155.6. Yes, the one about Bush's accomplishments. Here's the link for you.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Politicians/Bush_accomplishments.html

Now I didn't care much about Bush, but I guess I should put some other accomplishments that I may like or may not like on here.

PRESIDENT BUSH'S AMAZING ACCOMPLISHMENTS

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1163304/posts

THE ACCOMPLISHMENTS OF GEORGE BUSH

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1990856/posts

Obama has been feeding at the public trough so long that his daughters didn't ask for an allowance, they asked for a "grant".

LInk to:156.6 http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Politicians/Bush_accomplishments.html

I forgot to check for a link as it it was an email I copied....thought it was on there.Oops

Scott, I hope you will take the time to read the actual record on Obama's tax record. (All the way to the end). Thanks.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/jan/11/mitt-romney/mitt-romney-says-barack-obama-has-raised-taxes-19-/

Your answer to the question of my citizenship is, I voted for Obama in 2008 and will again on November 6, 2012. My passport says that's OK.

This year we will be chanting, "Remember, remember the sixth of November!"

Dear Johnny,

The republicans are completely responsible for the turn-down in the economy, wasn't that their plan in the beginning? Yes,

but President Obama will be re-elected anyway, because republicans can not hide all of the obvious lies they tell about him.

Go tell the House of Representatives to pass a jobs bill that helps build the middle-class and not shred the safety nets for the poor in the process!

Oh, that's right, taxes on the wealthiest will have to go up, so in order to protect the wealthiest among us, everyone else has to suffer, but the wealthiest will suffer now or later,

I know for a fact that hell is hot and not even a zillion dollars will get an individual out!

Burning Down The House: What Caused Our Economic Crisis? Bombshell

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RZVw3no2A4&feature=endscreen&NR=1

Some people are shallow minded enough to believe every word or photo on youtube.

rite larry, and speaking of "small brains" (re: #156). those videos are so badly 'cut up' anyone who takes them seriously has NO brains.

Right.... I know comments like #158.2 and #159 are like blind spots to liberals and they would rather not have to comment on them.

Anybody can make a fake video.

xxx... Absolutely anyone can make a fake video or post material without putting the link and pretend they came up with all the information as well. Know what I mean?

The only thing is the videos I put up were not fake and can easily be proved factual. Now they can be ignored, that's true. That makes it easier to see one side and not have to acknowledge the other side, doesn't it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeZcI4u0ZQg&feature=relmfu

Thanks for the heads up! No deception intended.

xxx... No problem. You probably don't care for me much, but I have to admit I think you're a pretty good fellow. My original intention wasn't meant to make friends. It was meant to make us aware fair for some should be fair for all. I think you have eased my mind and I wouldn't want to see you or anyone, except the ones both of us would agree shouldn't be on this vine. And it wouldn't be for their views, but would be for their language, calling people bad names or actually making up something that wasn't true and having that knowledge and still putting it on the vine. Respect for each other is important in our sometimes heated debate over ideas is the only way to be. I see no one on this vine now that has been excessively disrespectful from either side and I want to remind my conservatives friends to be respectful and do not get yourself into trouble because you lose it. We need you here and I would hate to see any of us leave have to leave. xxx...Hope you have a wonderful day tomorrow.

Its been said beware of Greeks bearing gifts....and vichyssoise!

Gwyneth Paltrow chatting with Eric Cantor... What the heck could Those Two have to talk about?

Christine Baranski looking for her seat at a table... I thought she just played WH Corresondent in movies...

She played the ditzy reporter in Chicago, who fell for every sob story...

Chris Dodd sitting next to Eric Cantor? Who made these seating arranbements... a Roulette Wheel?

David, Did you get the comment I left you on your page?

India...

I couldn't find your comment, either on my profile page or any of my articles... I also checked my e-mail, in case you sent it via Newsvine Contact...

What did you mean by 'your page'?

"Chris Dodd sitting next to Eric Cantor? Who made these seating arranbements... a Roulette Wheel?"

Doe Chris have his hand in Eric's pocket? Chris would still be in office if it wasn't for his "sticky fingers".

Sorry, my bad... It was Chris Todd, of the Daily Rundown... I'm always confusing their names...

David, where my avatar is. It was about a diabetic drug that has been found to be dangerous by a group I belong to, Public Citizen, a watchdog group. Check their website.

s and make us pay for our income tax a year in advance.

So that would b zero dollars two years in advance. How rotton.

Your feeble attempt to discredit me just shows how much lack of vision you guys have.

Who is more foolish, the fool who leads or the fool who follows him!

American patriotism is alive and well as today once left for dead Chrysler has posted a record profit after 13 years good news! More good news Detroits Element HDTVs has been sold out for the rest of the year for as they have come back from China more employed US JOBS MADE in the USA, again things are looking up and before you know it we will be selling stuff to China WooHoo!!! USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA!

xxx

No desire to discredit you personally just some of your ideas. I also raised 2 boys (now 45 and 37 )as a single dad! not easy .

Why are you cheering an Italian company with USA rant? Fiat owns Chrysler and their management saved it. Their profits go to Italy.

xxx

just in case you accuse me of bullsh%#ing

http://www.autonews.com/article/20110721/OEM/307219865

I had no idea Italy was our enemy!

Why wouldn't they be our enemy? After all it is this administration's policy to pay off our enemies and neglect our friends, but in this case I believe you're correct. They are probably one of our best friends. After all we gave them Chrysler.

xxx

I questioned why you were rejoicing with the chant of USA USA USA for an Italian company.Respectfully that makes no sense. Why not chant USA USA USA for Mercedes also? That does not make them our enemy but they will be keeping all profits generated by Chrysler and paying taxes in Italy. I like Pizza as well as anybody but...

By the way the Obama administration gave and additional 5% ownership stake in Chrysler for no cost what so ever for designing a high mileage car. Which they already had. You will start to see fiat ad on TV soon for the car thy already had designed for Italy

Maybe because Americans at least have the jobs rather than another country which in turn helps our economy? No economic value unless it's a "contribution" from the top?

The part that discourages me is that *everything* revolves around corporations and investors. Forget about the people doing a service or making the product that makes all the money. They're not part of the equation anymore? It's not enough that the majority of the unemployed are suffering through no fault of their own...they are viewed as nothing in the scheme of things except as consumers. No wonder so many have low self-esteem these days if people thought about how they are actually valued in the economy.

The powers that be promised trickle down and it ended up being a slow drip. Now they want it almost completely turned off so they can really get submission....threats and blackmail in *so* many ways. Actually that's too adult...."I want more tax cuts!!!!!!". No. They do all of it and more.

Just got done watching 5 episodes of "Inside Job". Great documentary about the Wall Street failures......and named *a lot* of names with interviews with about half. The other half wouldn't talk...gee, I wonder why. <s> It was free on Encore On Demand from my cable service.

When are people going to start to get prosecuted? Maybe after the election since they slighted Obama on campaign donations....allegedly. Most of them are still in high places, like Wall Street and the Government or resigned walking away with as much as $350 million dollars!!

These guys even owe probably billions to our Treasury for hookers (minimum $1,000 per hour) and limosines for their "dates". They would just bring the madam a blank letterhead and have her fill out phoney invoices for business expenses. The madams got plea deals in exchange for cooperating with authorities. Piles of cocaine like it was the '80s. This crap started during the Reagan era with deregulations.

What I like is that it was easy to follow because it expounds on a cartoon that TC posted about the housing bubble which was a big part of the whole crash. Thanks, TC!! BTW, both do not put any blame on the home buyers or the usual punching bags by the "right"....Maxine Waters, Barnie Frank, etal.

Will Main Street ever get Justice for all the corruption?

Haven't been able to see the Frontline videos from xxx yet. My computer doesn't seem to want to show them. Ended up making a shortcut and will deal with it soon. Really want to see them!

Who "gave" away Chrysler? I didn't sign any papers. My representatives didn't sign any papers. Who is getting an additional 5% ownership stake? Is it really going to hurt you like the Wall Street mess did to virtually everyone?

The housing Bubble was seen coming since the early 90's . While the left wants to hold The banking Industry as the devil in this whole sordid mess...while giving a free pass to the Bawney Fwanks and Anthony Weiners of the world who every time the banks tried to raise the borrowing standards threatened them with federal "Redlining lawsuits". this is the result of the Left's belief that "everybody deserves a home."which is also part of that whole goofy "inequity" debate.Everybody deserves what they work for and strive to achieve.The housing crisis occurred because of far too easy credit and irresponsible people not bothering to live within their means.No mercy for those signing interest only loans with ballooning A.R.M.s. You have a responsibility to manage your finances and many people just did not. Even as Fannie/Freddie was drowning...Bawney Fwank was pushing for even more money be put into Fannie/freddie. Those are on record and indubitably a huge part of the scandal. Sounds like an even handed documentary if it never assigned any blame to some of the most key figures in the downfall of the housing market. *sigh*

kathe

Here is one of many news stories about Chrysler. It has been managed by Fiat the US manager is an Italian who has a long history with Fiat. the part about the 5% is in the 4th paragraph down. All American stock holders were wiped out and thier ownership transferred to the UAw pension fund (43% ownership). The United states now has two American owned car makers. GM and Ford. Ford took no bailout money. The USA will lose about 1.2 billion on the deal. It is true that UAW jobs were saved but they closed dealerships all over the country causing many small dealers to lose their entire net worth and the firing of countless mechanics, secretaries, deatilers, salesmen None of which were UAW members so the loss of their jobs and the billions of dollars in lost equity of family owned dealerships i guess don't count.

You can see the videos of part 1 and 2 of the wall street documentary on the PBS web site i posted it a while back but can't find it now just Google PBS and you can find it . Part three will appear on Monday watch the others first or it will not make any sense.

Try as you may Ford got your so called bailout too. Was really loans. STOP trying to out FOX us!

http://useconomy.about.com/od/criticalssues/a/auto_bailout.htm

Ford did not get a dime you should read your own links before commenting on them Ford backed the bailout of GM and Chrysler because they depended on many of the same suppliers and Ford was afraid of the fallout if GM and Chrysler went under that could affect their owm ability to buy parts from vendors here is a cut and past from th3 lnk you posted i do not see ford anywhere in it. Nice try though you can't change facts try as you might. Only part of the controlled bankruptcy was loand other parst had to do with the destrucion of the bond holders and the equity by the stock holders. Your articl only adress the loan part.

n January 2009, the Federal government used $24.9 billion of the $700 billion bank bailout fund to rescue two of the Big 3 :

• $17.4 billion for General Motors and Chrysler.
• $6 billion for GMAC.
• $1.5 billion for Chrysler Financial.

The purpose of the loans was to provide operating cash for GM and Chrysler, and to keep making auto loans available for car buyers. Ford Credit planned to use funds from the Term Asset-Backed Securities Loan Facility (TALF),a government program for auto, student and other consumer loans.

XXX sorry I got cut off again. I am posting a link to a New York times article that explains the whole process . THe loans mentioned in your article were in 2009 were emergency tactics to keep the doors open but both Gm and Chrysler lost the money loaned to them and came back again when bankruptcy became inevitable. GM went through a controlled bankruptcy that wiped out 100% of the stock holders and bond holders were given I think a nickle on the dollar in 2010, Chrysler was taken over by Fiat the received a deal that include 5% ownership for free if they developed a low mileage car for Chrysler to sell in the US market because Chrysler cars were high milage Hemi's and the administration wanted gas efficiency a contingency of Fiat buying in. Last week Fiat bought out the remaining shares held by US taxpayers and Canadian taxpayers giving them controlling interest. Why are you questioning facts that have been around for almost three years. I know you are better informed than that. Did you really think you could rewrite history when it is so readily available on Google? Fiat installed a Italian President to run Chrysler under the CEO of Fiat. They have proven to be very effective managers.

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/c/credit_crisis/auto_industry/index.html

http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2010/12/report-ford-took-federal-funds-too.html

http://jalopnik.com/5704575/ford-bmw-toyota-took-secret-government-money

So did they? Or not?

The failure of Wall Street and the auto industry is another reason for some regulation not less or none. The people at the top arn't the ones who lose their homes and livelihood.

I agree with that completely but up to a point. Protecting the public is an admirable goal but protecting them from each other is a stretch for me. The biggest technical problem in the bust was the amount of leverage allowed. 40 to 1 is just not rational unless it is a sure thing. and the only sure thing is that there are no sure things. No system can handle a margin call on a 40 to 1 bet without reserves on hand to cover. If you don't believe me call your bookie Vito and place a series of bets you can't cover on a series of 40 to 1 shots. See what happens. I don't know why you keep beaqting a dead horse buying commercial paper from a lending institution is hardly a bail out of a auto company. If you watch the video of the wall street crash you will see that lenders were forced to take tarp funds like it or not. They were trying to maintain liquidity in a time banks had refused to lend to each other. Some need tarp some did not. All were forced to take them by selling commercial paper to the fed to freee up cash to lend to BUYERS not the car companies. gee to I have to keep this up. enough already. ford took no bailout money.

Ford took 15.9 billion so they wouldn't go belly up. Fed money! So they did!

THE END they did!

http://gm-volt.com/2012/04/10/should-the-government-invest-in-technology-research/

Even Edison said that fossil fuels needed to come to an end.

xxx this is getting tiresome here from Forbes magazine. The government has a energy development loan project. Your own post says so but yours focus on Fisker. What a great big job builder ... In FINLAND. Fisker is not an American company. Ford of course like any normal company took advantage of cheap gov loan programs to develop new tec. That in not close to a bailout. A bail out is when a company is broke and going out of business and the government steps in ans spends taxpayer money to save it. Like making an EQUITY investment making the previously privately owned company an US GOVERNMENT owned company. Business all take advantage of low inters loans if they can and if they did not the management should be fired for mismanagement. here is FORBES

Ford didn’t file bankruptcy or get bailed out by Uncle Sam, it received $5.9 billion in low-cost government loans in 2009 to overhaul its factories and bring out more fuel-efficient technology?

here is the real story behind the story for the only car company not to go belly or be sold to Italy. Here is the real payoff for being bailed out and having your stock given to the UAW from the USA and the penalty for not having to because you ran your business successfully. In today's America nothing brings punishment like success.

. FROM CNN MONEY

But all that success may now bring Ford some serious pain. The Big Three are hurtling towards a September 14 contract expiration with the United Auto Workers (UAW). For the first time, GM (GM, Fortune 500) and Chrysler are protected against UAW strikes thanks to agreements stemming from the government's $100 billion bailout, bankruptcy and reorganization of the two automakers in 2009. Ford is not. (Its union workers rejected a ballot initiative granting it a similar exemption the same year.)

xxx

from your post above. there is a name for these kind of government sweetheart deals to corporations it is called...

The prospect of federal dollars going toward advanced research – including for hybrid and electric car development – has caught its fair share of criticism, but according to a recent twin panel discussion on Capitol Hill, American competitiveness also hangs in the balance.

Objections have included philosophical disagreement with the government “betting taxpayer money” and “picking winners and losers” but what happens when bets pay off?

SUPPLY SIDE ECONOMICS

http://gm-volt.com/2012/04/10/should-the-government-invest-in-technology-research/

xxx

just for the sake of argument lets suspend reality for just a sec.and say you are right that we bailed out ford AND TOYOTA and BMW why aren't you pissed at your government bailing out foreign corps ??? are Japan and Germany so poor that they can't even help their own companies??? why is it not their job to bail out their own instead of my and your tax dollars shoring them up instead of giving more to hurting American companies that are not in the auto biz???

It was a loan it did in fact bail GM & Chyrsler out but to Ford and others it was a loan. I guess you don't like the part about it is that its being used for electric cars...For myself I don't really won't one yet,but its the future and better get use to it. Its coming. If we don't lead we will be lost in the dust holding an empty gas can!

Here today gone tomorrow!

xx you miss my point I fully believe in supply side econ that is what government investment in private enterprise is unless it is that same for all businesses. electric cars are fine for the people that want to ride in them i don't that is my choice i don't fault you if that is what you want your ride to be. I guess if you had a successful company and somebody wanted to buy your product but could not borrow the money so i loaned it to them in you logic that would be bailing you out. there is not much to discuss. Also if you had a successful business making ordinary widgets and i wanted to have a super widget in the future but you're okay with making and selling ordinary widgets so i agree to loan you money at low rate if you agree to try to figure out how to make a super widget so I can have one in the future if you call that transaction a bailout even though you did not need it well there really is no reason to continue your definition of bail-out certainly is not mine.

I didn't call it a bailout you did, Everything is getting paid back! It wasn't a gift. Round and round you go. I'm taking the exit. If you want you can keep on going on the race track if you wish.

clearly you do not understand theat you are tying four completley separate government actions into one bundle that yoou call a loan. I will separate them one more time for you

Round 1. GM and Chrysler run into money problems and have no operating funds and cannot borrow in the private sector in early 2009. They along with Ford fly to Washington to appear before a committee . Gm and Chrysler are looking for LOANS t just keep in business. Ford goes along to support because failure of their competitors would take critical ford vendors down which ford need to make cars. LOANS were made to GM and Chrysler. for operating funds payroll etc none to Ford.

2 Congress passes a new law for the energy dept authizing 25 billion for the energy dept to hand out low interest rate loans to encourage companies to develop energy efficient vehicles Ford is forced to take the loan and use it for R&D to devevelop fuel efficient car. Fisker automotive in Finland also take a loan from the same fund. This loan has ties to it and can be used only for one thing.

3 tarp is passed to shore up financial institutions to give them capital to loan as they were not loaning money to ANYBODY for ANYTHING. The idea is to put cash in the hands of lenders so they will be encouraged to make loans. All three car companies have financial companies that they owned that are separate from the car making operations. They exist so when a person comes to a dealership to buy a car and wants to finance it can be done in ones stop shopping. Those financial arms would bundle the car loans just like mortgages were bundled and sell the bundle to a bank. Banks stopped buying those bundles ford and the other motor financial institutions got the government to buy those bundles so they could continue to make cars loans .this had nothing to do with the car manufacturing business. This was all done is secret at the time to keep the public from making a run on the banks. The info is coming out now and the amount ford financial got was the 5+ billion that you have turned into 15 billion. This was not an actual loan to the financial companies but was an actual purchase of the bundle.this freed up money in those finance companies so they could continue to make car loans. In order to do it more efficiently GMAC switches from a finance company to a bank this article also explains the emergency loans mentioned in 1 above to Gm and Chrysler

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/24/AR2008122401848.html

4 BAILOUT Chrysler and GM both lose the money LOANED to them and are now within days of closing doors. rather than go through the bankruptcy court like any other business a special so called "controlled bankruptcy" is tailored for each mainly to save UAW jobs. The creditors and stock holders are wiped out and ownership transferred to the government and to the UAW pension funds. In the case og GM Obama fired the Ceo of GM and put in his own guy. In the Case of Chrysler they also needed better management and more resources so Fiat was brought in and a sale over time was set up for them they took over management and put in an Itallian CEO from Fiat. Recently Fiat bought out the USA. THe re is a loss of $1.9 billion to American taxpayers on the Chrysler deal that is now ovwer. I posted the link with that info and am not goig to do it again

call what happened anything you want i know what it was. Because of my background I read the Wall Street journal, Barron's , and Bloomberg every day and have for 50 years. My guess is that you keep up on articles related to your business and i would be at a disadvantage by a long shot trying to catch up with you. I don't know why you insist on degrading the efforts of the only successful management team running an American auto company but I guess you have your reasons. Since all this is public information though it is very easy to debunk.I suggest you watch in its entirety the PBS report on the melt down I think it will include the automakers in part 3. i know of no oneelse that has come up with your theories. any way 'Im out.

Six, That is a lovely concerto. Thanks. I'm tired, Scott wore me out. LOL I'm rereading Jane Eyre after all these years, so I am going to go to the den and read a few more chapters. Have a good evening.

Still enjoying the Malbec from Argentina! Have you ever tried Herding Cats brand from S. Africa? Not expensive, but they have a decent merlot. Good night, Six.

Good night India.... Of course I may as well say good morning.

Hey Six, Well, now it is afternoon and I realized it was TAP who told me about that wine! LOl You must have wondered, WHAT is India talking about?? Have a nice Sunday. It's real pretty here today for a change.

Americas Debt has Surpassed Americas GDP!!!

Sorry, but what we can not afford is a button down phony elitist like willard pretending to be president as a figure head for the corrupt republican party. Silly thing is they are always blaming everything on Obama....yet you Say to Elizabeth

"Isn't that a little stupid"?

Maybe you think that in your wording that your insult is covered......?

OBAMA WILL BE BACK IN THE WHITE HOUSE AGAIN IN NOVEMBER.

No Bush gets NO credit! He gave up- remember ?

Yep, the debt that Bush started and the republican congress keeps because they won't raise taxes on the wealthiest.

Have any you seen the show on the History Channel "The Third Reich" I can see allot of parallels with what the right wing radicals are doing now!

Johnny,

From the bottom of my deepest heart I know that President Obama is the leader we need in the White House.

I can't wait to vote for President Obama once again for President of the US.

If we make it though the summer with out a debasing of the dollar I would be surprised. Than it well be the survival of the richest! And who knows what will become of the rest of us?

FEMA camps

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/news/4312850

People vote with their wallets. H-i-s-t-o-r-y.

So Scott, what drugs are you taking?

have you been watching survivalists? (i believe on the discovery channel?) better start hoarding right now.

Johnny, I realize you are a teabagger and therefor haven't a clue but do you know what a filibuster is?

Oooooops.....And the reborn evangelist on TV are selling solar power luxuary kits. Better get yours now.?

Her is some hints on how to survive the republicans when we are put out on the streets.

http://survivehomelessness.com/

A fililbuster is the means of stopping a politician intent on shoving legislation down your throat that was never popular with the American people or has no input from the minority party what so ever..as occurred with the healthcare bill...right?

BIG DEAL! WOW! Tea Party is growing?

http://www.buzzfeed.com/zekejmiller/herman-cains-rally-at-the-capitol-is-a-bust

scottie

How is an 18 month debate considered "shoving down you throat? Scottie is deffinately a faithful Fox Lies, Drugster TeaBagger. Only with less inteeligence and common sense.

larry

Oh, I see scott, is still here pouring tea for everyone. Let me know next time and I'll make a nice table and bring cookies. His visits are always so pleasant. He is also making you feel right at home while he refers to one of you as a buffoon or stupid. I think it is really un-necessary for him to do that but he is a re-run kind of guy.

A common sense kind of guy actually.Which leads me to being easily despised by the left, where common sense gets in the way of their "feelings". Liberals "Feel" there are inequities, where I see it as an enployment enthusiasm deficit. But thanks anyway.And how does this morning find you?

Scott, Well, it's Sunday evening now, and I am fine. I am baking a pineapple upside down cake and it smells good. How are you down in beautiful W. Virginia? I drove through there once in October and it blew my mind; absolutely gorgeous mountains, all red and gold and yellow. I meant to tell you that last night. I have never seen such beauty as that bright October day; those mountains against a deep blue sky!

Oh, I also wanted to tell you that I am not a liberal. Not all Democrats are.

my business partner Max will roll over and howl at the moon for pineapple upside down cake. My particular vice is coconut cream pie. ( from toddle house anybody remember them?) best pies and hash browns on earth.

TC, That cake turned out so well! I don't know Toddle House, but my husband took me out to breakfast this AM and I had some delicious hash browns. When I make them at home, I shred them in my French "mouli" (a great little shredder, no electricity needed. LOL) and I throw in a few grated onion slices and sometimes a bit of green Bell pepper. I brown them to a golden colour, and I like them with a side of sour cream and a side of apple sauce. He likes catsup.( Ketchup?) No spell check! Too lazy to go to fridge to look!

I've yet to make a cocoanut creme pie, but there's an idea. Thanks! Perhaps I should tell you that I am a member of Public Citizen, a watchdog group, and they have deemed a diabetic drug dangerous. Go to their website, as I cannot recall the name.

I heard you say you raised two boys alone. Well...Heaven awaits you, for sure on that "Great gettin' up mornin".

It's been other names according to some on here..so,why not?

I don't think Obama asked the supremes for their definition of "constitutional" either...Why not yell at them DE?

So why be here? What's the going rate for causing trouble on a liberal blog?

What the heck are you talking about ? Yelling at who? You? Just asked a question, no yelling involved.

But since you mentioned Supreme Court, I do believe Scalia, Roberts, and Thomas should be impeached. Thanks for asking.

?

Good night, want to get up early to watch UP with Chris Hayes

In the marketplace of ideas is all...I tend not to go to websites that do nothing but espouse the same views I hold..what's the fun in only hearing the choir sing along with you? If your views are correct, they will withstand scrutiny..if not.....

my point exactly I have nothing to learn from people who think as I do. I pick things up here from time to time and admit it when I do.

OMG my we all kneel down and kiss your feet! That's like complimenting your wife by saying " Your look nice! Your not as fat as you use to be"

A lot of righties have the same affliction as these guys..closed ears and minds.If the facts warrant, i can change my mind..but most here have no interest in real world facts. Just the planks of the party.Nice chatting you up TC. Good Night.

Bye bye Scottie!

Hey, XXXOOO, We've been "chatted up" by Scott! LOL

Has anyone seen the professor around lately? Hmmm?

I also agree and they expect to get payback later.

Then they should get the Lobbyist out of Washington. Were there ever any honest politicians? Are they only in the movies? We have people like Grover Norquest, and those who are connect with groups like Alec who try to buy the government and they know about it yet we don't seem to have representative or senators who are willing to disconnect them selves from them. I might have respect for one who would just stand up and say loud enough for the whole country to hear "This is wrong and I'm not going to do it anymore".

This Government was founded to hhave a limited,LIMITED role. This government is bloated,self serving and the Left just t only intends to make it bigger,greedier and more inefficient. Grover Norquist means to starve the beast which is a grand idea. The Founders laid out the path for Government and the left has twisted and distorted it's role which really took off during LBJ and the "Great society" and the entitlements have wrecked the budget and the left uses entitlements a and bennies as a bribe. just keep adding expenses and piling on debt when there is no room in the budget for it. Reality.

Grover Norquist is like a pimp for the right.

Norquist has only his bloated self interest in mind with his phony pledge of control.

If anyone distorted the role of government he is a wright wing player.

In reality, the budget was balanced when it was handed over to bush.......the debt celling was another right wing ploy.........gw/cheney blew the budget to line their pockets and commit their crimes.

IF Grover Norquist appears to be a "Pimp" to you, that would be because the left is a Collective of Government entitlement "Whoe's" . Do you understand the intent of the founding fathers and how far away from their intents this Government nanny state is? This is a relatively recent development started in the 60's with the great society and the welfare mentality. And all of the ills which has become progressively worse since the inception of it.r

Scottie: It's crazy to think that we can go back to the size of government of 1776! Quit with the right wing propaganda. Her's the FACTS not the FOXTION!

http://doubledippolitics.com/2012/01/12/rumors-of-government-growth-have-been-greatly-exaggerated/

XXXOOO, Obama certainly has not grown the government. Bush was the BIG offender in that department. Did you hear that, Scott?

GWB, IMO the worst president since Buchanan. Damn near destroyed the country. Now Romney wants to take us back to those same policies so he and Ryan can finish us off. For some reason I cannot fathom, Scott, down in WV, would vote for that elitist, job killing, corporate raider! Go figure.

I don't want a sociopath and a liar in the white house, but that's just me. Go figure.

INDIA

how about a proven manager who knows how to cut the fat out of a company and a government agency to make them more efficient and less costly without sacrificing the underlying program. GSA is supposed to have that job that is what they do. If a government agency needs office space GSA is supposed to go out and cut the best rental deal. right now there are thousands of unused government buildings that they were supposed to sell five years ago to date they have not made a dent due to after selling them the GSA property managers would not have jobs. think of the tax bucks that could be saved by moving that expensive and unused real estate. . MITT the Knife would do just that make the government leaner and meaner. We really would not have to cut programs if all the stupid use of our money was stopped. I believe there is enough savings in making the gov run efficiently like a business as we must to save our best programs. See I do not want to cut actual benefits from actual people that need it I just do not want to provide lavish trips for my employees who already make double what the average American voter makes.Why not elect somebody with a track record of cutting waste from companies???

In 2009, government agencies sold only 2,200 buildings -- while more than 10,000 were identified as "excess." The previous year, only 835 buildings were sold, according to the General Services Administration.

So if 10,000 buildings were classified as excess, why were only 2,200 unloaded?

Law requires the GSA, which acts as the government's property manager, to offer unwanted property to states, local governments and nonprofit organizations, at discounts of up to 100%, before auctioning the property.

In addition, surplus government buildings must be offered up as housing for the homeless before being sold.

What's up for grabs: The result is a GSA auction website that currently lists a mere 23 properties, with nine open for bidding.

Solutions: In a 2009 letter to Rep. Ron Kind, Congressional Budget Office Director Douglas Elmendorf laid out ways to increase revenue from the sale of federal property.

Revenue could be increased by directing the GSA to take all surplus buildings directly to auction, bypassing the cumbersome review currently required, Elmendorf said.

He also proposed changing the incentive structure for federal agencies in an effort to monetarily reward them for reducing their building count.

http://money.cnn.com/2011/01/19/news/economy/excess_federal_land/index.htm

In other word regulations are even strangling the government from its own success and keeping us from getting the rewards.

TC I realize you people want no regulation on ANY part of our 'free' market system including our medical drugs, food, water, air and wall street but damn, didn't you learn anything from what happened three years ago?

John that is just a typical silly liberal tactic to take a wish for reasonable regulation and turn it into an demand for no regulation . there is no point in me engaging that imaginary flame throwing so I won't. but did you realize or even read who in my post wanted the regulations lowered it was that horrible Ayn Randian head of the Congressional budget office. The head regulator who analyzes the cost of regulation by the government for the government. . geez

TC, #168.9 There is NO WAY, my friend. NO WAY. I absolutely detest Mitt Romney and I trust him as far as my 120 lbs. can throw him.

There aren't many people I detest, but he, Ryan, Cantor, Boehner and Mc Connell are in there together.

Oh, yeah, and 87 GOP T-party freshman in the house. I heard on the news this AM that this is the worst congress since the Civil War and I believe that!